"This is a live-work-play, walkable development of the type all of the liberals are raving about." Mike, I had no idea this kind of development was associated with a political ideology. Based on the response I've heard, Elephants like Avalon too.

"This is a live-work-play, walkable development of the type all of the liberals are raving about."

Liberal like to live-work - play and walk. Does that mean conservatives don't?

Avalon does not proceed from political idealogy; well, except for that political idealogy that is based on making a buck. Market trends and the demographic status that makes up Alpharetta are its reason-to-be. Are people being hurt by it? Let NAP make their money, let liberals rave about it. May all its tenants be profitable!

Gen Y prefer walk able, more dense/urban type areas to live in and also prefer to not be as tied down (own vs rent) hence the 4-23 story apartment towers all being built now in midtown. Also why Avalon and downtown Alpharetta need loft style apartments. Rail though I agree is not a good idea except that it's good to destinations... The airport, the world congress center, the dome, and Turner Field. Oh wait, it doesn't go to Turner Field...

If for example you want to take it from Avalon to Phipps you get off at Buckhead station and walk a few blocks. If you want Lenox you have to take it past Buckhead then get off and wait for doraville train. But at least you could get there. But terminus and streets of Buckhead? Nope.

If Atlanta ever gets dense enough to make parking and traffic as expensive as new York it'll work otherwise I'll just drive anyway

Transit isn't just rail projects. Transit involves bus service to connect all of this suburban sprawl so that people are not forced into their cars every time they leave their house to do just about anything. And I agree with several of the previous remarks, Mr. Lowry, it is so obvious that you are anti progress unless it involves keeping things just the way they are. I view myself as a progressive not just a liberal. I don't believe in social engineering but I do believe in change. It is inevitable. Just look in the mirror. Embrace change or risk irrelevance.

Transit is a "social engineering project."
"This is a live-work-play, walkable development of the type all of the liberals are raving about."
Tell me, do you think that the developers, good Capitalists all, might desire to have a bus run by their development? Keep in mind, someone has to "work" at the various Publix's, bars, shops, Fitness Clubs and such that make up these communities. Most of those workers can't afford to live there.
Transit for the exurbs usually means bus routes. You have to look at things in the totality - light rail works best when there are specific destinations, buses work best when their are multiple destinations, cars are great when their are good roads... well you get it, you are in the Rotary.
Shame on you... the second leg of the Rotary credo, "Is it fair to all concerned?" seems to have escaped you. Mass transit is fair to all because it provides opportunity for people to better themselves by being able to cheaply go to work, school or health facilities. Mass transit is a "cost" to us but it is a benefit to Capital.

Wow...I understand that we all should ask ourselves "Is it fair to all concerned?."
Sure Capitalist would like for tax dollars to benefit their endeavor. But when you view things at a macroeconomic level, any public tax dollars spent in this case would only benefit the Capitalist and in the short term "maybe" the workers. While everyone in between gets to pay out of their pocket to benefit a few.
But what if we do not put in a rail or bus route and the workers needed to run their business are not available because they cannot afford get there or to live there and work? The Capitalist answer would be to raise wages to a point where the supply of workers are available to meet the business demand for workers. This benefits the workers in the best possible way-a better wageI believe we can all agree that those who cannot help themselves should be helped by meeting their basic needs, through direct local community social works and not a mass governmental taxing program. Any attempts to help those that can and should help themselves have unintended consequences. For example, their motivation to better themselves is compromised and an opportunity to better themselves in the free market is usually taken from them or at the least diminished.
The discussion and resulting decisions for this type of project should be kept to how will it benefit everyone the best and not a select few. If the society as a whole does not benefit then it should not happen with the public's tax dollars.

Yep, because the subsidized roads, bus system, water and utilities will connect the Avalon hub to the rest of the world.

Will this development require potable water and sewer service? The Metro Water District's plans call for $20 billion in investment in our water infrastructure over the coming years. There's no referendum on this, it is a mandate to the cities and counties in the District. A mandate imposed on the current residents and tax base not to clean up our already horrendous water issues, but to accommodate future unbridled growth. As with the roads this is an example of the generous socialist subsidies long enjoyed by Metro developers. Oh and that rail service? The best thing about living in North Fulton is the access to heavy rail into the city. The TSPLOST means not even having to get on 400 to reach the heart of the region. And a myriad of new destinations that I can reach intown with the improved connectivity to MARTA. As far as relying on the ultra right wing GPPF for 'facts' - well, they are on record as stating that nuclear power is 'renewable energy'. Tell that to the Japanese. The fact that Atlanta has some of the worst air quality in the country and a water supply issues worse than Calcutta is decades of unbridled socialism for developers in the forms of roads and water supply and treatment systems. A definition of insanity is to continue repeating the same action with hopes of a different outcome.

Mike,

Look at Roswell Road between 285 and the river. That private sector investment had no planning and it does not reflect the neighborhoods within Sandy Springs. What goes with planning? Incentives to make the plan work. Inman Park is a live work play area, it is actually an example of new urbanism. Go down there and have dinner on Wednesday night and compare your experience to a dinner at Champps on Mansell. The optimism you get when you build things that are attractive to younger people adds far more to the tax base than the benefits we would have by the government getting out of the way.

You need government to do "big things." Water, infrastructure, "mass transit" all are things society needs to function.
It amazes me that we can not even agree upon that.

Houston, agreed on the government investment and need to plan for and watch over returns and benefits analysis - infrastructure is not a business, but business principles can be applied. However, when Avalon (and Lowry) says they don't need subsidies, we're already talking about a dilapidated property that's fully connected that's undoubtedly getting legislative help to get done. I'm for planners and engineers over politicians making decisions or pushing pet/family/buddy/donor projects...

Using a CATO Institute study would be like me throwing a CNN or MSNBC or Mother Jones study at you.
Find someone a bit more non biased.

Mike, You keep harping on the 95%/5% benefactor/beneficiary divide. I've pointed this out to you before but I'll do it again. Public Transit benefits more than just riders. It benefits us all by taking trips off the roads. It further benefits us by reducing air pollution. It benefits us all by providing options. It helps conserve land along critical corridors.

Your 95/5 argument is a disingenuous talking point that seems to be designed to intentionally to mislead your audience. I'm not sure you are too concerned since you are obviously pushing an anti-tax agenda but if you would like to more accurately opine to the masses, you should indicate that 100% of us would be paying for a system that 5% of us currently regularly use rather than misleading your unfortunate audience into thinking that only 95% of us will be paying for a system that only benefits 5% of us. Please stop intentionally misleading your audience.

I love Mike Lowry's arguments 'We do not need to impose an ultra-expensive technology (rail) that performs best in high density places' Really? A two-century old means of transportation, rail, is some sort of new-aged 'technology'? It's obvious that you don't live out of our little suburban world (PS: I happen to live in the suburbs as well), otherwise you wouldn't make such ignorant statements as 'We need realistic, cost-effective transportation solutions that address the needs of this region and are designed to meet the needs of the low density population that we are.' Rail IS the most cost-effective means of mass transit. Why do you think it thrives in most major metropolitan areas in the world? And who exactly is against in-town development? Suburban developers! So you're argument that this is some sort of vast conspiracy by developers looking to make a windfall off of smart transportation planning is just filled with holes.

And it's funny because 95% of the people I work with downtown live...in the suburbs! Many people choose to drive in to the city for work because there isn't a robust mass transit system that reaches out to the suburbs, as there is in NY, Boston, other major metro areas. It's not the city vs. the suburbs as you keep falsely arguing. The people who work in the city mostly live IN the suburbs, and spend their money at suburban shops, grocery stores, etc. You argue against mass transit because it doesn't serve YOU!

This article is exactly the point about where ATL needs to go: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/opinion/sunday/now-coveted-a-walkable-convenient-place.html?_r=2&ref=suburbs

Atlanta is one of the highlighted cities in this graphic: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/05/25/sunday-review/0527-web-walkable.html?ref=sunday

To quote the press release on Mike Lowry's article, to insinuate that somehow Atlanta has solved its traffic woes, is plain ignorance. From the release from InRix: "n the first worldwide report to analyze traffic congestion, 70 of America’s Top 100 Most Populated Cities showed decreases in traffic congestion last year. These results are indicative of a “Stop-’N’-Go Economy” where lack of employment combined with high fuel prices is keeping Americans off the roads." Translation: a poor economy has led to less congested roads (relatively speaking of course)...all elements that fluctuate, high gas prices, bad economy and lack of jobs. AND: in towns where the economy was improving, traffic congestion INCREASED: "Cities outpacing national employment growth (1.2%), like Tampa (3.0%), Houston (3.2%) and Austin (2.1%), showed some of the biggest increases in traffic congestion."

Again from the Brookings research: "Different infrastructure needs to be built, including rail transit and paths for walking and biking. Some research has shown that walkable urban infrastructure is substantially cheaper on a usable square foot basis than spread-out drivable suburban infrastructure; the infrastructure is used much more extensively in a small area, resulting in much lower costs per usable square foot. "

If this thing passes, I'm moving to rural Dahlonega and telecommuting. On second thought, maybe I'll move to Texas.

Ok No Name....you won. That zinger made me change my mind. When was the last time you heard someone say "that's ironic"? Irony can be a b!tch.

Why are we taxing toilet paper, tooth brushes and deodorant to pay for roads, trains and buses? Isn't this nothing more than a regressive tax on the poor? Why should poor people who don't drive be forced to pay for the roads? If the rich want to build more roads so soccer moms can drive their kids to practice in gas-guzzling SUV's, then they should pay for it, not me! I shouldn't be forced to pay for their roads by paying taxes at the grocery store! I'm voting "NO" on T-SPLOST. It just doesn't seem like a fair system of taxation.

Great...Avalon is a live-work-play development; I just hope that those who live, work or play there actually live, work & play there. Otherwise this development won't do anything to alleviate congestion and would in-fact, increase it.

One key problem to our traffic problem is that people simply don't live near where they work. This is a modern development made possible by the personal automobile. Unless we make a concerted effort to live & work nearby, an efficient blended transportation network is the only solution; roads-Yes, rail-Yes, mass transit-Yes, carpools-Yes...nothing should be off the table.

The real question is how to pay for it. T-Splost isn't the answer. It's a regressive sales tax on the working class which benefits the wealthy class disproportionately. How so? Easy, the top 10% control 80%+ of the financial wealth, business income and far greater discretionary income. Transportation fuels economic activity and worker productivity, which in turn leads to greater business profits. And yet businesses will pay very little towards T-Splost.

To compound the issue, the Gold Dome has split the state into separate T-Splost zones as if we're all disconnected. In reality, we're all connected via trade and travel. As such, transportation in Atlanta impacts Savannah, Columbus & Macon, yet they won't pay.

The real solution is a small income tax rate increase. The entire state pays because we're all connected and we all benefit.

Brian Wheeler:

I'm not sure whether it's your Saul Alinsky "Rules For Radicals" training, or perhaps a paid position with Maven or ARC, but your continual childish personal insults to everyone on this thread are wearing thin. If you disagree strongly enough to post 10 different times on the same thread, perhaps you should write your own blog and put your thoughts in front of everyone...assuming you can write anything but insults.

You could:
1. Write a brilliant defense of the current project list, underscoring MARTA's use of false terminology to include maintenance items in conflict with HB277, or
2. Write an insightful dissertation on the use of invented definitions instead of reality to drive ARC's economic model to the results they wanted, or
3. Defend the illegal use of nonprofit charitable status to raise funds for a political issue campaign, or
4. Explore the brilliant use of the delphi technique to squash any opposing commentary.

I'm sure we would all be interested.

Wow Mike, so you single me out for commenting multiple times on this thread, and yet you don't have a problem with those supporting your argument, such as Dianne or JAH. Why is that? And please tell me exactly where I insulted anyone? Any examples would be welcome. I noticed how you can't dispute the facts that I've laid out on my postings. So, because I disagree with your point then I guess my arguments aren't welcomed here? Do you consider it an insult or personal attack to offer facts that dispute your remarks?

I'm sorry the user I meant to mention was 'No Name' who has commented just as much as me. And BTW; I was under the impression that this was a community site? Is that not the case? Or is this just your personal sounding board?

BTW: It's kind of hilarious that you make a common political attack line of "Saul Alinsky' when complaining that I'm somehow politicizing the topic or using cheap lines of attack...

Mike: I do not disagree with all of your comments, but distracted by the reference to Saul Alinsky.....hmmmm....read Breitbart much? Has anyone cared to ask what Zell Miller thinks? He is from North GA, he is pretty sensible, he knows the nuances of the state legislature and the strengths of both sides of the aisle. Even close to home, I wonder what Pug Mabry thinks? He was in office for over 30 years and managed to grow with the demand. His tenure predates me, but I bet he was decent. Just a thought......

It has been a week since this topic was first discussed on the community site called Patch, so I am going to give up on this thread now.